Breaking the Silence - Addiction, Nursing, and Finding a Way Back

Celeste Pinney:  Welcome to the Nursing and Midwifery Health Program Victoria podcast series, where we will be diving into issues that impact the way nurses and midwives navigate today's ever-changing world. I'm Celeste Pinney, a registered midwife and senior clinician at the Nursing and Midwifery Health Program Victoria and host of this podcast. The Nursing and Midwifery Health Program is a support service which provides care and assistance to nurses, midwives, and students by experienced nurses and midwives. Our service provides a space where our colleagues can bring with them any sensitive health issues impacting their well-being. The programme is voluntary, and importantly, it is free to access, confidential, and independent. Joining me on the podcast today is Rob McKenzie, a registered nurse who works in the alcohol and other drugs sector and who has come today to share with us his own journey with substance use. Welcome, Rob. 
 
Rob McKenzie: Good day, Celeste. Thanks for having me. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Thanks so much for coming on. We feel really privileged to have you on the podcast today. I think it takes a very brave person to speak publicly about their personal experience with addiction, and it's not often we have the opportunity to hear about someone's life experience in such a unique way. And I really feel it's going to offer a lot to the nursing and midwifery community, especially those who might be battling drug and alcohol use. So thanks so much for sharing. 
 
Rob McKenzie: It's a pleasure, and it's a real pleasure and a privilege as well to be able to talk about this with you. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Great. Thank you. I just thought, first off, it might be good for the listeners to hear a little bit about you and your role as a nurse, where you're working now, what you're doing. 
 
Rob McKenzie: Yeah. Sure. So, I'm coming into my 20th year as a nurse. I've worked over a pretty diverse range of clinical areas: medical, surgical, ED, theatre and I've been working in AOD predominantly since about 2018 or so. I work at a mental health service that has a specific AOD department in it. And yeah, work with people with coexisting mental health and AOD issues. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Great. Wow. Sounds like you've had a pretty extensive and varied career, lots of different areas of nursing. 
 
Rob McKenzie: Yeah. Yeah. I have, definitely. I generally don't like to sit still for too long. So yeah, I like to mix it up. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Yeah. Great. And you used our service many, many years ago when you were going through your own struggles with addiction, and you're now working in the sector helping others. We would love to hear a little bit about your own experience, about why you came to us to seek help, if you're happy to share that. 
 
Rob McKenzie: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I was thinking about this over the last couple of days, and I can't actually remember how I originally found out about the Nurses and Midwives Health Program. But yeah, I was involved with it sort of when it first started, and I reached out for help when I was first starting to struggle with substance use. And then yeah, I was involved, and I went down to Melbourne because I was living in regional Victoria at the time and I think there was only sort of three people who were a part of the program. There was Glenn, the CEO, and a couple of other workers. But I sort of, at the time, I was kind of in the early days of my substance use, and I sort of had some sort of brief intervention through the program and I found it really helpful to be able to talk in to be able to talk to other nurses. And that's right. It's just occurred to me. My GP at the time got me onto the programme. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Oh. Okay. Great. 
 
Rob McKenzie: Yeah. That's right because it was when it was when the new national laws came in. And I went to my GP for help, and I'm like, "I don't know. I don't know what's going on, but I've sort of got into this bit of a pattern, and I can't stop. What the hell's going on?" And anyway, he explained to me, he helped me out and everything, and he explained the mandatory reporting thing. And he said he was like, "Now, if I report you, that's going to look pretty bad. So you can report yourself, and here's an organisation that will help you." And that was when he hooked me in with Nurses and Midwives Health Program. 
 
I was sort of getting assistance from them and found it really helpful. But anyway, my substance use escalated, and I was lapsing and going in and out of using. And I was doing some pretty bad things, and it was affecting my relationship and everything at the time. Anyway, the crux of it - and this is where I'll just, this is where I'll say that the program saved my life - because I was down in Melbourne, and I had, I went and saw one of the workers there and you see, at the time, I'd stolen scripts from work, blank scripts, and I was filling them out. And I didn't think there was anything wrong with it at the time. I mean, this is what addiction does to us. It just puts us in survival mode, and we do what we need to do to keep using. Anyway, and I said to the person at the program, I was like, "Oh, yeah. Look, things are better. I'm no longer doctor shopping because I can do this." And she was just like, "What?" And I'm like, "What?" And she's like, "Do you realise what you've just told me?" Anyway, so she gave me an ultimatum. She said, "If you're not booked in to rehab within the next week, I'm going to be reporting you." And I was like, "Whoa." That was a big slap in the face. And that was the first person who said something that made me actually think, "Ah, this is kind of serious." And I did the following week. I was in a four-week residential rehab.  
 
Celeste Pinney: Wow. So it gave you that impetus, or it sort of shook you up and made you see that you did really need help? 
 
Rob McKenzie: The brain changes with addiction and substance use, and it becomes about survival, not just about choice. And I didn't think that what I was doing was that bad. I didn't think that there was anything wrong with it. So yeah, into rehab, spent a month in there and then came out, and everything was pretty good for a while and then I relapsed, which, long and short, led to the breakdown of a long-term relationship, 12-year relationship. Had the whole sort of house, animals, white-pickett fence and everything with my partner at the time for, say, 12 years. But unfortunately, I just pushed and pushed and pushed the boundaries to the absolute limits and my partner, who I will be forever grateful for to have in my life for the period that I did, who supported me just to the nth degree, he'd had enough, and he had to look after himself, and he left me. And that was when I sort of, there's the old saying that we're hitting rock bottom. It's probably my first rock bottom. There's been a few. That was probably my first. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Very hard. 
 
Rob McKenzie: So, he basically kicked me out of our house. I'm not going to go into those details, but then I kind of realised, " What have I done? Where am I? What's going on?" I was very scared. I was confused. I couldn't understand why I kept doing what I was doing. It didn't make sense. I knew what I was doing was wrong, and I couldn't stop. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Do you mind if I ask, at that point, how long had you been using substances for? 
 
Rob McKenzie: After I got out of rehab, I had about a year without using. And then prior to going into rehab, it was probably three to four years. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Okay. That just gives us some context. 
 
Rob McKenzie: It was on and off. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Yeah. That's good to know. 
 
Rob McKenzie: Yeah, and I'd had in my younger days, I used a lot of the party drugs and stuff that were around in the '90s and used a lot of weed and stuff like that. But this was different. This was next level for probably four to five years. And then I just let loose. I remember this one night, I looked at myself in the mirror, and I just looked terrible. And I was just like, "Well, you've done everything you can. Nothing's changing, so let's just go with this." And I kind of just allowed myself to let loose and just use lots and lots and lots. I got caught at work by a pharmacist when I was trying to fill one of these scripts, and they reported me, they contacted my employer, and they rang me. My boss was amazing at the time. She was like, "Look, this has happened." And I was stood down from work. I didn't realise the extent of what the consequences were going to be at the time, but I knew that they were going to be bad. I was like, "Oh no." And I just went into damage control and made this false statement to the police that I'd had my identity stolen. And then the next day, I was like, "Why did I do that?"  

 And I went back to them and told them about it and everything. And so that was the point where I kind of really reconnected with the program and just told them what had happened. And there was just like, there was no judgement. There was no, "You've done the wrong thing." It was just like, "Okay. Let's do something about this to help you," sort of thing. I'd been reaching out for help for years at that stage, and all the stigma and the, "You should know better," and like, "You're a nurse. You shouldn't be doing these things," and da da da da. No one knew what to do with me, essentially. I didn't know what to do with myself. And I was like, "Well, I've been through rehab, so what else could there possibly be?" 
 
Celeste Pinney: You thought you'd done everything you could at that point. 
 
Rob McKenzie: Yeah. Yeah and I had. I'd tried really hard, but there was just something that just I don't know. I mean, I do know now. I didn't know at the time. So I was getting supported through the program and then kind of long story short, the proceedings and everything started, the legal stuff, and I was arrested. And this was before COVID so I ended up surrendering my registration because I was just I got really sick. I was really sick mentally, and I was withdrawing, my life was an absolute shambles. It was a mess. It was an absolute mess. And I was just like, "I just need to go away. I just need to hide for a while." and it was kind of good in a way that COVID hit when it did because I had to sort of move back in with my parents for a while, and they went away, and I had the house to myself. And I just bunkered down, and I was just like it was all about me, but in a better way for this period of time. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Had you stopped using at that point? 
 
Rob McKenzie: Yes, essentially. Yeah. Yeah.  
 
Celeste Pinney: Had you made that decision? 
 
Rob McKenzie: Well, the decision was kind of made for me, which I'm pleased because I don't think I would have been able to make that decision myself. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Yeah. That makes sense.  
 
Rob McKenzie: And I was so lucky to have had access to those. So, I was so, after I was arrested and I went down to the police station, it was months. It was months and months and months before anything happened, and that was when COVID hit. And so I surrendered my registration, and Ahpra had been in contact with me and said, "We've received this notification and everything." And over the next couple of years, I was in this limbo with what was happening. I went to court, pleaded guilty. I was so lucky. I was facing a jail sentence. I was facing minimum one year jail time. And I was able to get some really good references and stuff and the judge who presided over the case that day, he said to me, "I can see that you just got into a really shitty spot, essentially." And he was like, "Society should benefit from your training, and we don't want to take nurses out of the field." he didn't give me a conviction, which I was just like, "Oh my God. Thank God." 
 
Celeste Pinney: Incredible. Yeah. 
 
Rob McKenzie: I've never been so relieved about anything in my life. And I got put on a good behaviour bond. Anyway, so for me, that was like, "Okay. Cool. Legal stuff complete. Let's now tackle my registration." So I applied again for registration, and this is when I started engaging with the programme again. And I got connected with one of the workers, Cheri. Shout out to Cheri, my frigging lifesaver. And I was a mess. And she started helping she started giving me some techniques and grounding techniques and stuff like that. And I remember I was just like, "This is never, ever going to work for me. This is not what I need. I've been controlling my life with all these different classes of drugs for many years. What's breathing going to do for me? Anyway, I was stuck with it. And I kind of just went, "Okay. I'm just going to keep trying." And I kept trying, and I'm going, "This isn't working." And Cheri's like, "But you've got to do the work." She was like, "I keep hearing these things in my head over and over again. This isn't work. You've got to do the work. You've got to do the work." 

 And I'm like, I just want to feel better." It was so incredibly frustrating that I couldn't just take a pill to feel better. And anyway, so it was obviously a very stressful thing, and I was working very closely with Cheri over the time. And I got so and then so parallel to that, I was trying to get my nursing registration back, and I applied too. And originally, I was knocked back, and I put in a submission to appeal that decision, and that was knocked back. And then they said, "The next thing you need to do is present to the board." And I did that in - I don't know - sometime in 2021, I think it was. And so this was when the COVID stuff was settling. And I remember sitting there on Zoom in front of my laptop, and I'm watching all the little boxes pop up on the screen. And I've got to about - I don't know - 12, 13 boxes. And I'm like, I remember hearing people throughout my career talking about the nurses board and how daunting it is. And I just remember thinking, "Oh my God. I'm so lucky that I'm able to do this remotely." I was absolutely scared out of my brain.  

 And I put forward my case, and I just said, "Yeah. I did that. I did this stuff. Yeah. I did." I didn't try to give I didn't give any excuses, even though the judge and stuff said that there were mitigating circumstances around my mental health and relationship breakup and stuff. I could have given those excuses and stuff, but I was just like, "No. This is what it is. I'm mucked up. I've been through." And it's funny, when I'd finished, just before I disconnected the call, the person who was leading it, I still hear this in my head. And she's like, "Oh wow. This is a tough one." 
 
Celeste Pinney: Oh, interesting.  
 
Rob McKenzie: Yeah. Yeah. I was just like, "What will be, will be." Later, I got this email basically saying that they'd granted me my registration with restrictions and conditions. I couldn't administer S8 drugs. I couldn't even look at S8 drugs, basically, with those conditions and had to have regular. I had to have regular psychiatry reports, and Ahpra could get regular reports from my workplace. And I was just like, "Whoa. I can't believe this." I never thought I'd get my registration back. 
 
Celeste Pinney: So fortunate. 
 
Rob McKenzie: So I was pretty happy about that. And the following week, I got another email from Ahpra saying, "We're taking you to VCAT for professional misconduct." 
 
Celeste Pinney: Oh 

 
Rob McKenzie: Yeah. that was when shit got pretty real, and I was just like, "This is going to be tough. I think this is going to be really, really, really tough, harder than everything else." It dragged on for a couple of years, actually, three years. Three years. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Oh my goodness. That's such a long time. 
 
Rob McKenzie: And I was seeing Cheri regularly. I was always in tears. I didn't know what was going on. My livelihood, I should say, my livelihood, not my life, but my livelihood was literally in the hands of Ahpra. The communication was dreadful. I'd get these out-of-the-blue emails, so I was constantly hypervigilant anytime my phone made a noise. It was like, "Oh my God. Is this Ahpra to say they've taken away my registration and stuff?" Cheri was probably the only person who I could talk to on that level and who could appreciate what was on the line and I couldn’t really talk to another… I didn't have anyone in my life who was another RN or a registered practitioner to talk about this. It lasted a long time, and my mental health got really, really, really bad, really bad to the point of getting ECT. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Wow. Yeah. It must have taken a huge toll on you. 
 
Rob McKenzie: It was massive. It really was. And I'm not saying it's out of self-pity or anything. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Yeah. It's just you're speaking the truth about how things were for you. 
 
Rob McKenzie: Totally. My learning to regulate things as well. I was seeing a psychiatrist, he prescribed me lots and lots of medications. I was just, I was I was labelled with treatment-resistant depression and major depressive disorder, and I kept trying and trying. I'm sure that anyone listening to this can appreciate I was one of those patients who had a psychiatrist that was seeing them regularly, and I was getting thrown all this medication at me constantly, breaking down my mental health. It was just the absolute pits. I'd present to ED. I'd ring up helplines. I was on lots of medications, antidepressants, big doses of benzos, despite the fact that was one of the medications that I had an addiction to, and forging the prescriptions for. So I'm just saying this because this is the level that some medical practitioners don't understand about addiction. 
 
I was one of those patients that was just like, Look, let's just he did the best he could, but I was in that much distress that, so I just got to the point where I had to leave nursing again because the distress was caused but I wasn't getting any, you know, "better" in inverted comments with my mental health.  
Then I realised that, that, you know, one of the main causes was, was that I was just on edge the whole time at work. You know, I was just hypervigilant about getting a phone call from Ahpra to say, "You can't work from this point forward because of, you know, whatever, some reason." 
 
Celeste Pinney: Hmm. 
 
Rob McKenzie: And, you know, this VCAT hearing, I didn't know when it was gonna be. I was in, you know I had lawyers and, like, it was just it, it was it was it was too much. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Overwhelming.  
 
Rob McKenzie: It, it was just, like, the most overwhelming thing I've ever experienced in my life. Like, you know, it was just it was too much. I was in this really good, um, job. You know, I, um, I was an I was an ANUM, a clinical educator, um, at the hospital that I was working at. And, um, I had an amazing, supportive, um, boss who, fortunately, um, I'd known for years, and they knew, obviously, what, what had happened. Um, but, you know, they knew me, and they knew what I'd done didn't define me. 
 
Celeste Pinney: That's amazing. 
 
Rob McKenzie: Oh, it was. Like, you know, I'm just you know, I, I, I can look back now and see all these amazing things and just go, "You know, I'm so fortunate that this and this and this and this and this happened." I just had to, I just had to, to get out of nursing again. I, I couldn't have my livelihood, um, hinging on something that, that I didn't know what was gonna happen, when it was gonna happen, what were the consequences gonna be. So anyway, long story short, I was working in this other job. That took a lot of the pressure off. The, um, the hearing happened. Um, the legal team had negotiated a, a 6-month suspension. Um, and, you know, even on the day of the VCAT hearing, I was like, "Oh, my God. It's all gonna be finished today. Thank you. Thank God." You know? The day of the hearing came and went, and, um, I didn't hear anything again for 2 months. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Yeah. It's a long time to wait. 
 
Rob McKenzie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then anyway, eventually, it was like, "Yep. Registration's gonna be suspended as of this date for 6 months." And I was just like, "Right. Thank God." You know? And I also got a reprimand. So, um, you know, I had, um, restrictions, conditions, um, suspension. I had a reprimand on my record. I made the bloody papers. Um, you know, there was a the, the, the my solicitor contacted me on the day, and he was like, "Look, make sure you've got no pictures of your face on, on anywhere on the internet," um, he said, "because, um, the Herald Sun will, will jump on this case." And, and, and they did. And then the next day, um, it was big headline: "My full-name nurse suspended." And, and all the details were put out there. it was humiliating. Like, it was totally humiliating. 
 
Oh, it was it was I wasn't prepared for that. Um. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Hmm. 
 
Rob McKenzie: So yeah. So, um, I was suspended for, for 6 months. And, you know, having publicly available information about details of my mental health, addiction, all that sort of stuff out there on the internet that somebody can type in my name and search, um, was a huge consequence. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Hmm. 

 Rob McKenzie: Anyway I served my suspension and I was really fortunate that a friend of mine had lined up a job for me, to go back to when my suspension had, had finished and, um, that happened. And then I, um, did that for a while. It was a purely tele full-time telehealth job. you know, it was a good it was a good way to ease back into things and start to get my life back on track. I'd sort of I'd sort of get to these sort of over the next 18 months from then, I'd sort of get to these points, and I'd be talking to Cheri, um, and I'd be like, "Oh, great. Everything's, everything's back to normal. It's good."  

And then sort of be like that for a while and then sort of, you know, go downhill again and be on the you know, have sessions with her she really she really helped me, um, build myself up again, you know, um, and put things into perspective. And it was never it was never, um i-it was never, like, "Oh, you need to you know, you need to do these things really urgently to get things back on track." It was just like, "Yep. This is part of the process, and, um, let's, let's work through this." and the, the skills that I learnt, eventually, when they finally sunk in, were amazing. Like, and I use them to this day and, you know, I get it now. I get what she was trying to get me the ways she was trying to get me to think and, and stuff like that, you know? And I can implement them now, and I can do it. 
 
Celeste Pinney: That's amazing. It just takes practice and time, doesn't it? 
 
Rob McKenzie: Oh, so much practice. So much practice and so much time. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm a very stubborn, determined person. 
 
Celeste Pinney: It's probably a good thing when you're trying to learn new habits. 
 
Rob McKenzie: It is. you know, now, um, I'm at the point, where I've, um, I've moved forward, finally, in my life. I don't let what happened define me anymore. I've owned my shit. You know? I did this. At the end of the day, I did it. Yes, there were reasons and, and all that sort of stuff, but I did it. There were the consequences. I had to deal with them. And it, it took a long time. It wasn't easy. It's the hardest thing in my life that I've ever had to do. but I stopped pushing back and when I stopped pushing back, that's when, um that's when I started to flourish. 
 
Celeste Pinney: When do we when you say pushing back, sorry, do you mind just clarifying that, Rob? 
 
Rob McKenzie: So, like, before all I had this life. I had this really good, stable life, good job. You know, I progressed through. I was, I started out in, in, in the one place, the one hospital as a as a grad oh, as an EN, and then as a grad RN, and then postgrad studies and moved up and up and up. Um, you know, CSN, ANUM, clinical support and I tried for many I tried for quite a few years to try and get back to that point. I was like, "If I can get back to there, well, then I can move on." And that was a lot of the problem, was that I was, um I was trying to recreate the life that I had. I was trying to bring back into my life those elements of what was in my life that made it so good but I just kept getting pardon me. I kept getting barrier after barrier after barrier. I eventually got to the point where I was just like, "This isn't working. I have to I have to do something dramatically different in my life." I saw a new psychiatrist, um, who gave me a, a different diagnosis. And, um, that changed my life. He explained to me that my symptoms weren't just about being depressed. It was emotional dysregulation, um, due to something else. Which I won't go into. 
 
Celeste Pinney: That really helped, helped your perspective and helped you see yourself in a different way. That was obviously more positive for you. 
 
Rob McKenzie: It, it made sense. It was like, "This makes sense." And yeah. Since then, my life's just dramatically changed. I started a new job at the start of this year. I moved from Victoria, interstate, I've been welcomed in a new position. I've been asked to apply for senior positions. I work with a bunch of neurodiverse people in recovery from addiction. Like, I'm surrounded by my by my mob, you know? And it's amazing. And, um, I can help people. I can talk about my experience and tell people that what you're doing is not due to, um, a character defect, you know, I've, I've studied addiction a lot now,  
 
I've studied the neuroscience of it. And, um, you know, and, and to be able to sit down with people and have very frank conversations about things without passing judgement, um, and without them, you know, saying that there's something wrong with you. It's like there's. There, there, there is nothing wrong with you. It’s not a moral thing. We're, we're not talking about morals or choices or decisions. You know, addiction changes our brain. It reprograms our midbrain, the, the fundamental elements of survival that every single living thing on the planet has. The studies show the neuroimaging shows that that gets reprogrammed. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Hmm. 
 
Rob McKenzie: Addiction is not about choice or morals or what we know is right or wrong. It’s survival. It is on a neurobiological level, we're talking survival mechanisms in our brain. That's how addiction changes our brain. 
 
Celeste Pinney: It's so valuable that you can offer that to the people you're working with. I, I imagine that they just, like, really value your experience and your wisdom and knowledge and your such intimate experience with addiction yourself. They would probably I, I could see it would make them feel a lot less alone and more understood. 
 
Rob McKenzie: It's a very humbling position to be in. I'm in a very, very, very privileged, situation that I can that I can talk about this. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Yes. I can see that. 
 
Rob McKenzie: I don't live in fear anymore. Um, I, I can accept myself and I get really protective of people who come through and, like, say, "Oh, there's something wrong with me," and this, that, and the other. And, you know, I'm just like, "No. Please, please, please understand that there's nothing wrong with you." 
 
You're a human being, we make mistakes. We make bad choices. Um, we, we do things that, that go against societal norms. And some of those things are really, you know, big, we do, unfortunately, have to face the consequences. But, it's not about us as people, as the person that we are. You know, it doesn't define us. And that's what I just that's what I'm so passionate about, is just saying, "This doesn't define you as a person." Now when I first went into rehab, I said to the to the doctor, I was like, "I'm such a bad person. You know, um, I must be such a bad person." And he said to me, "No, you're not a bad person." He said, "You're a good person. You're just doing some bad things at the moment”. 

"Bad people don't know they're bad people." And this is what I tell people: if you can recognise, if you get this feeling that I'm doing something wrong, that I'm doing something bad or whatever, that means that you're a good person because if you were a were a bad person, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Hmm. Taking away the shame. There's a lot of shame, um, in addiction, which is one of the reasons we know why people don't always seek help. And I think that sounds like you're sort of trying to help de-shame people. 
 
Rob McKenzie: Absolutely and I've been fortunate enough to, um, do some webinars, um, with Ahpra, around the notification process. I was interviewed by Ahpra around my experience in the notification process. I was very blunt. I told them that I had more support through the criminal justice system than I did through them. That's documented on Ahpra and that was so healing read that so I guess what I'm saying is, out of all that, you know, bad stuff, there, there's been a lot of good stuff happen. I've been able to have my voice heard, um, and have some of the processes changed a bit in terms of notification. Just some little things. Not huge things. 
 
Celeste Pinney: That's amazing. Well, that will hopefully make a difference in other people's lives. 
 
Rob McKenzie: And that, that's all I can do now. I can make a difference in other people's lives. It's, it's, it's not about me anymore. I've done my me time. This is it's, it's my time to give back. 
 
Celeste Pinney. Giving back. Yeah. I mean, what an incredible journey, Rob. It's just amazing to hear, um, what you've been through. It's, it's something that, you know, probably a lot of people will never go through. But you came out the other side, and you've turned your life around, and now you're helping other people. And it's just such an inspiring story. I feel very inspired hearing it. And I think our listeners will too. And, and I hope that for anyone out there who is battling with any alcohol or drug problems, that it does, um, make them think about maybe reaching out for help, whether that's to us or another service. I feel like it will it'll really open up people's minds in that way. So thank you so much for, for sharing everything so honestly and, and openly. 
 
Rob McKenzie: Pleasure. It's an absolute pleasure and a privilege. Thank you. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Yeah. Thanks, Rob. we really appreciate your time. Thank you for coming on. And all the very best with your journey going forward in your work. Keep doing the good work. 
 
Rob McKenzie: Thank you very much. 
 
Celeste Pinney: Great. Thanks for listening today. For any nurse or midwife who might need support after today's podcast, you can contact our service on 9415 7551.